how stiff do rods really need to be ?

[topbanana]

Just seen this while mooching about on the web. Its an interesting debate and it'll be interesting to here what people have to say.

' Lets take a look and see if rods have changed for the good for fishing. Lets go back to the 70's wasnt many ultra stiff rods back then! Unless you took the scarborough rod and reel route. Lets look through to modern day, in the 70's the multiplyer age began i remember rods such as milbro, hardy, edgar sealy & so on, now these rods were floppy things but did they catch fish! Of course they did, Rock ,Sand, Pier, the lot. Did they cast a bait along way? Yes coupled with a mitchel 600, or a intrepid sea streak or even a early 7000 with level wind, Not quite to todays standards but double that of the old scarborough gear, so we move on then came the real changes abu 484, Conoflex, plus others, these rods could cast even further still very soft by todays standards, but did they catch more fish open to debate. Only when the real class anglers took this method onboard then things started to change! Eric Thompson "still one of the best there has been." Jeff Cook, Mick Hillaby & Joe Bamfield Just to name a few these boys could pull cod through kelp with ther soft rods! Over the next few years things moved along slowly in rod desighn but at this time a man came along that was to change all angling around scarborough and surrounding areas, a man who would use this new tackle to its limits "remembering that we are still on relativly soft rods" This man took rock angling to a level not even matched today using 7000's, 484's, Conoflex's He outcasted and outfished anyone who crossed his path, That man being Steve I'nson.but Lets get back to the rods the next real move forward was Semi-Carbon again conoflex these rods were the benchmark for everything to come, these agian were still very soft by todays standards, but did they catch less fish? No, more! And probably bigger ones too.The casting era had begun. The next major change in my mind was zziplex, still very soft actions but the part where people seem to forget is they were very powerfull capable of casting long distances with big baits and also pulling fish through heavy kelp! Zziplex moved slowly forward making quality fishing and casting rods "only fueling steve's quest even further" The other manufacturers also brought ther own models out and were very succesful with models like Conoflex's , Flicktip, & Diawa's WKT and so on, Give and take a few years. At this point i think rods became a selling tool not a fishing tool, some manifacturers decided they would even start making rods that didnt bend and just snapped "Scorpian sport for example" Shame really becuase the rods they were making before were exellent! Then came to my way of thinking some of the best fishing and casting rods ever made watching some of our local big casters use rods from this era in my opinion casting some of ther longest lines take CPS "as big a caster as there is" always thought his best was a S.V bullet "mint fishing rod". Then take ramrod watched him many times pendulum his 12 foot soft tipped terminator and land his lead in Norway! (again a excellent fishing rod) Mart Wilding another massive caster with rods from this era. Then came the stiff era, and the question i leave you with is "Have we lost the plot?" How stiff do rods need to be to catch fish on rough ground or do they need more viagra in with the carbon? please give me your opinions as i am interested to know where we are going from here and in my opinion a lot of our best catches and best fish were taken on softer rods

[codfather145]

Nice report mate must have taken ages to write.
I think the still rods for the kelp ect will always be here but the more lighter and longer rods will be the future.
I have noticed over the last 10-15yrs rods are slowly getting longer.
Before rods were 12-13ft but now you can get the up to 16ft.
This makes a novice cast further with less effort because we all try to cast further and further but why.
Alot of us only fish piers and there is no need to hit the horizon .
Most of the fish are caught within 50yrds from the pier wall.
So just stop and have alook at we're you fish most of the time and pick a rod to suite.
This is my opinion .

[marco1967]

Nice report mate must have taken ages to write.
I think the still rods for the kelp ect will always be here but the more lighter and longer rods will be the future.
I have noticed over the last 10-15yrs rods are slowly getting longer.
Before rods were 12-13ft but now you can get the up to 16ft.
This makes a novice cast further with less effort because we all try to cast further and further but why.
Alot of us only fish piers and there is no need to hit the horizon .
Most of the fish are caught within 50yrds from the pier wall.
So just stop and have alook at we're you fish most of the time and pick a rod to suite.
This is my opinion .

Copy and paste ...

[Stewart 1971]

When I was a young man I remember lads using the Zziplex 2500 as a kelp rod. Nowadys it would be looked at a too "soft" by many even for clean beach winter fishing.

IMHO the stiff rod fetish is also a bit of a NE thing. I lived on the south coast (Portsmouth) for 20 years until returning home not long ago. Shingle beach fishing into loads of weed (my pb was a lump well over 25lb), not much rough ground to be fair but a fair few mixed patches. Main target species Bass, Bream winter codling, whiting, Sole and Plaice. And in the summer the Smoothhound.

Smoothound fishing, one rod, set the drag or a double figure fish (and it is not uncommon to catch half a dozen doubles in a session if they are in) will have your rod half way to France before you know it. The hardest fighting fish in British waters after the Mackerel (imagine a 12lb Mackerel and you'll get some idea).

Yet the Primo Synchro would be looked at as a stiff rod, maybe too stiff for much of the fishing. HSM at the stiffer end, Primo Match or Profile ideal, TTLD, TT Lite or TT Match / Super Match also popular. I know the lad who caught the unoficial (he returned it) British record Common Hound (28lb odd) and he was using a TT Lite. And while you are not dragging through Kelp down there, as noted you are fishing in tons of horrible floating weed that can (and often does) make it unfishable at certain stages of the tide.

Moving home I found the stiff rod fetish a bit bizarre to begin with. My main rod now is the Synchro, I've still got the TTLD (which I use as much as I can) and I've got an M4 Evo which to me is a stiff rod (and I speak as someone who has a field pb just short of 250 yards). There's plenty out there who will say the M4 Evo is "soft" - a 300 yard rod that will handle pretty much anything you throw at it; but it's only soft compared to the real hardcore rods like the Zeteque TXL or TTR / WR300 (which I had and hated - lifeless piece of scaffolding pole with no feel for me).

Sorry for the rambling post but as the OP suggests it is a question worth exploring.

[CHUKKA]

A good caster will cast a long way with any broomshank or floppy stick. Carbon or fibreglass! Same as anglers, a good angler will catch fish regardless. Modern rods do help but I do believe they are becoming too powerful for most. I like powerful rods because they get the job done but are nowhere near as nice to use as a sensitive softer rod. You can fish everywhere with a stiff rod but will struggle if your rods too soft. I've noticed a number of anglers are now using 7 oz leads to tow baits out, in the old days it was 5 oz. For scratching its going the continental route, long light rods and light end gear. Lovely to use and very effective but and a big but, they can't be used all of the time. Nowadays there is so much choice you can buy what suits you. Trouble is most buy what suits others ie is trendy or used to cast 300 yds. It doesn't matter if they can only lob 80yds with a huge grunt. Tackle is tackle at the end of the day, luckily good rods are now cheaper or more expensive if that's your thing.

[john/r]

A good caster will cast a long way with any broomshank or floppy stick. Carbon or fibreglass! Same as anglers, a good angler will catch fish regardless. Modern rods do help but I do believe they are becoming too powerful for most. I like powerful rods because they get the job done but are nowhere near as nice to use as a sensitive softer rod. You can fish everywhere with a stiff rod but will struggle if your rods too soft. I've noticed a number of anglers are now using 7 oz leads to tow baits out, in the old days it was 5 oz. For scratching its going the continental route, long light rods and light end gear. Lovely to use and very effective but and a big but, they can't be used all of the time. Nowadays there is so much choice you can buy what suits you. Trouble is most buy what suits others ie is trendy or used to cast 300 yds. It doesn't matter if they can only lob 80yds with a huge grunt. Tackle is tackle at the end of the day, luckily good rods are now cheaper or more expensive if that's your thing.

could,nt of put better myself.

[mark.ttr]

Interesting post and couldn't agree more. Like all fishing gear not just rods, most of it is designed to catch the angler and not the fish. But can't knock the fact that some off the latest gear doesn't only just look good but performs like nothing else.

[finseeker]

...

[Dilbertd]

Interesting post, I have been wondering about modern stiff rods too. I have just started fishing again after many years and I am still using my old 484. I decided to stick with what I was used to (at least to start with). I have been enjoying fishing with the old 484 so much that I have bought 2 more on ebay. I have been comparing my fishing and casting styles with the modem rods and while the modern rods are definitely casting further they do not seem to have anything like the same bite detection. If distance casting is required then the modern stiff rods have the edge, but for enjoyable fishing (and keeping the equipment cost down) then some of the older classic rods are a viable and enjoyable option.

[ChrisH]

Do you know what might be interesting? If anyone has got access to the old casting records; what is the record now? what was the record 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago and 40 years ago. Just to see how advances in rod design and the new materials has helped in distance casting.
The biggest advance in distance casting must have been the development of the pendulum cast; surely. When was this developed?

I'm firmly of the belief that the BIGGER STIFFER beachcaster isn't always best for everyone. I think you have to find a rod that suits your build and strength. To be able to cast well, you need to be able to bend it, especially in the mid section. I see too many lads fishing with pokers that they can barely bend the tip of. The majority of people would actually cast further with a softer rod that they could bend properly. I also believe that too stiff a rod can cause you to lose fish close in; when there is little line out there is almost no stretch in it; losing the shock absorber affect of the line; the rod is the only thing acting as a shock absorber and if the fish shakes it's head violently the lack of flex in the rod can cause the fish to rip the hook out.
I clicked on about 20 years ago that rod manufacturers were trying to brainwash/convince us that we had to have their latest rod because it was BIGGER and STIFFER so it HAD to be BETTER. I use a Diawa Whisker WKT 13MF which compared to today's rods would be considered soft. I don't lose any more tackle on the rocks than anyone else, I can pull my gear and fish through the kelp just as well as anyone else. I have landed all 4 of my doublers with this rod including my personal best 19 1/2 pounder along with umpteen other good fish.
I'm not knocking the latest rods; I'm just saying that stiffer isn't always best for everyone; you need to find a rod that suits your build, size, strength and technique and if that's the latest super duper stiff barge pole then that's great.

Just one last thing; 15 and 16 foot rods aren't new. They were around years ago; I had a 15 foot rod back in the late 70's. They were very popular with Back casters. The longest one I can remember was a 17 footer.
Funny how fashions go round in circles!
I hope flared jeans, tank tops and desert boots don't come back in any time soon!

[arc]

Interesting post, I have been wondering about modern stiff rods too. I have just started fishing again after many years and I am still using my old 484. I decided to stick with what I was used to (at least to start with). I have been enjoying fishing with the old 484 so much that I have bought 2 more on ebay. I have been comparing my fishing and casting styles with the modem rods and while the modern rods are definitely casting further they do not seem to have anything like the same bite detection. If distance casting is required then the modern stiff rods have the edge, but for enjoyable fishing (and keeping the equipment cost down) then some of the older classic rods are a viable and enjoyable option.

Dont write off the old 484 for distance casting . A couple of years ago I took my old 484 down to an East Coast Casting Clubs event at Driffield just to see what i could do with it on the court . Id never cast it for over 30 years and it had lost an inch or so off the tip making it about 11ft 3 ins .
On the morning I managed around 230 yds with my zippy xtr and as the conditions deteriorated decided to have a play with the 484 , the result being 5 out of 5 casts over 205 yds with the best at 223 + and ive since had it over 230 mucking about at Kirkleathem on the Thursday night practice .
I know it opened mine a few others eyes regarding the tournament rods we all use .

[Stewart 1971]

Do you know what might be interesting? If anyone has got access to the old casting records; what is the record now? what was the record 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago and 40 years ago. Just to see how advances in rod design and the new materials has helped in distance casting.
The biggest advance in distance casting must have been the development of the pendulum cast; surely. When was this developed?

I'm firmly of the belief that the BIGGER STIFFER beachcaster isn't always best for everyone. I think you have to find a rod that suits your build and strength. To be able to cast well, you need to be able to bend it, especially in the mid section. I see too many lads fishing with pokers that they can barely bend the tip of. The majority of people would actually cast further with a softer rod that they could bend properly. I also believe that too stiff a rod can cause you to lose fish close in; when there is little line out there is almost no stretch in it; losing the shock absorber affect of the line; the rod is the only thing acting as a shock absorber and if the fish shakes it's head violently the lack of flex in the rod can cause the fish to rip the hook out.
I clicked on about 20 years ago that rod manufacturers were trying to brainwash/convince us that we had to have their latest rod because it was BIGGER and STIFFER so it HAD to be BETTER. I use a Diawa Whisker WKT 13MF which compared to today's rods would be considered soft. I don't lose any more tackle on the rocks than anyone else, I can pull my gear and fish through the kelp just as well as anyone else. I have landed all 4 of my doublers with this rod including my personal best 19 1/2 pounder along with umpteen other good fish.
I'm not knocking the latest rods; I'm just saying that stiffer isn't always best for everyone; you need to find a rod that suits your build, size, strength and technique and if that's the latest super duper stiff barge pole then that's great.

Just one last thing; 15 and 16 foot rods aren't new. They were around years ago; I had a 15 foot rod back in the late 70's. They were very popular with Back casters. The longest one I can remember was a 17 footer.
Funny how fashions go round in circles!
I hope flared jeans, tank tops and desert boots don't come back in any time soon!

All the old UK casting records are here: Past Winners

You will see that in 1985 Neil Mackellow cast 281 yards; IIRC Paul Kerry has cast 296 yards with a 12' rod and high reel but it was not at the UKSF.

The page linked above certainly makes for interesting reading...

[Dilbertd]

Found this on the net ... 197 yards with end gear, 220 yards with lead only

[g.ordon]

All the old UK casting records are here: Past Winners

You will see that in 1985 Neil Mackellow cast 281 yards; IIRC Paul Kerry has cast 296 yards with a 12' rod and high reel but it was not at the UKSF.

The page linked above certainly makes for interesting reading...

Good bit of reading that, sort of quantifies the debate about mult v f/s, just looking at the stats it looks like a sort of 20yd average advantage for mult, I do realise these are top casters but just a thought

[Cod,cod,cod!]

All the old UK casting records are here: Past Winners

You will see that in 1985 Neil Mackellow cast 281 yards; IIRC Paul Kerry has cast 296 yards with a 12' rod and high reel but it was not at the UKSF.

The page linked above certainly makes for interesting reading...

Yes, Paul Kerry might have done BUT different fields a long with it's conditions can sway distances as much as 50yards or so. Matt Russell chucked 314yards at steyning. At NESA he'd prob only chuck around 270ish.

Too many variables. You can only really compete against the best casters who are there on that day and judge your distance in relation to them.

Back to the rods. I wouldn't go back to a softer rod. Simply, I buy rods for fishing not for chuking 4 or 5oz on some field.

A rod needs to chuck 7oz and bait easily for me and handle any ground up here. It must be reliable enough that you only take one rod with you and not be bogged down with gear.

People will say a primo will chuck 7oz. What they mean is it'll not snap with 7oz on. Will you get the best out of it with 7oz or 5oz and bait?

Longer rods have come back because they're now lighter and easily more manageable.

All personal preference I suppose. I'll stick to what I use and you stick to yours.