petrol v diesel...inboards v outboards

[boblydon]

Following on from the pictures recently posted by norman and sless, i have decided that i want to purchase another boat, something between 18 and 23 foot in length, ie Avor, quicksilver, oqueteau etc as it must have a lockable cabin and be able to stand up in it.
The advice i am looking for is wether to buy a boat with an inboard diesel or an petrol outboard, bearing in mind the future cost of diesel, it has been many years since i had outboards ( 2 stoke )i remember them being thirsty noisey and smelly things, surely the new ones must be totally different ( would be looking in the range of 115hp ), i know many of the lads have outboards and am looking for there advice in particular.
The cost of the boats with outboards seem a lot cheaper that there equivelent diesel partners, so maybe the money saved will out wiegh the cheaper diesel fuel for the next few months ????
Finally does any one know of any sites that offer running cost comparisons ie gallons used per hour etc etc, also which are the best outboards to go for...
cheers
bob

[Norman]

First thing Bob, no such thing as 2 strokes anymore .............. (in the "new" bracket that is before I get millions of replies) so the new four strokes are much better on performance and their lack of ability to empty the pocket against their 2 stroke forunners....

Unfortunately to manage to get 4 strokes to be as efficient as they now are and to have the weight to power ratio (bearing in mind all the weight is at the rear of the boat as opposed to an inboard being in a nice central position so per HP they do have to fairly light as opposed to a deisel inboard) They are packed full of "Gizmos" to adjust input fuel, input air volume, flow/mixture rates, output gasses etc etc. to get the clean burn required.
Not that any of this is a problem as you simply turn the key and it goes.

However, theroetically speaking, knowing the distances and stop/starts of engine at each wreck/reef/flat fishing spot I have made since purchasing Slinky Kate,(and I expect I`ve not really touched the useful lifespan yet)
Would I or you expect the same resiliance of a 4 stroke outboard?

MPG (or GPH if you prefer) is still way ahead with deisels and the simplicity of them is such a bonus.

Along with the propulsion geartrain ie no 90 degree bends just a simple straight through shaft what could be easier.

One benefit of outboard I can see, if ever I have a total disaster it`ll be more difficult for me to re-engine rather than re-engine another outboard ....... but I`m not expecting to ever have to do it.

ps red deisel is around for some time yet, my 25000 gal tank will probably last me out ........ (if I wern`t using it to simply heat the cabin that is)

but of course Bob you do already know all this .............

Norm

[boblydon]

Thanks Norman, i was thinking in the long term for the petrol outboard, been looking on the net and evinrude give a three year service interval and 5 year warrenty, also forgot to say that i may at times trail the boat to scotland so the outboard would have a benefit there.....also i am looking at buying a Arvor 215 which needs a new nanni engine its allready under offer but if it falls through i am next in line for it....fingers crossed.

[16979arkle]

my engine has done 100hrs and used 58gal over that period which is a suzi 115 all data came from the engine

[Marc]

Bob, I bought a brand new Suzuki although it was only a 50. It was a excellent engine and pretty economical too.

Very reliable and always started first time even after leaving it for months on end.

Skegs arn't very robust against your neighbours kerb stones though when you forget to lift the engine before pushing it off the drive :0

Copper mallet and file worked wonders though.

[mark]

be interesting to see wether the price difference between deisel/petrol boats changes next year. On paper I suppose you'd think that people will start to buy outboard powered outfits as they are cheaper initially, and there'll be little to gain in fuel savings, but I suspect folks will still prefer the diesel option

some of the modern 4 stroke outboards are pretty amazing bits of kit, lots of 5 year warranties about now, and fuel economy is pretty good, so if an outboard powered outfit comes along and its say 4 or 5 grand cheaper than the diesel equivalent, you're gonna need a lot of miles covering before you'd get that back with fuel economy savings of a diesel

the down side is there's a hell of a lot more to go wrong with modern outboards, lots of computy things and electronics, but I haven't heard any horror stories yet about them going badly wrong. The mariner 50 4 stroke that was on the last boat was 7 years old, and was sooooo quiet when running, so quiet it was easy to forget it was running on tick over, some of the more modern offerings are even quieter, the suzuki marc had on his you wouldn't know was running if it wasn't for the tell tale

maybe one way to look at it is, what the resale price likely to be on either option in 3 or 4 years time.... that could be the killer, secondhand outboard powered outfits do seem to lose more than the diesel equivalents, but maybe the red diesel thing might level that out a bit

As for the Arvor, I've read a few not too happy reports about build quality over the last year (do a search on WSF forums), seems to be a few issues there. There'a a lad I spoke to last year in hartlepool who went through a similar dilemma and ended up buying a quicksilver with a 115hp merc on the the back, he sees more than happy with his, reckons on about 2 to 3 gallons an hour at 25knots (if I remember rightly) which don't seem bad

[boblydon]

Thanks all for the advice, as these new style outboards are new to me, especially with a 5 year garenttee they seem extremely good value, as you say Mark, it takes hell of a lot of fuel to save the difference in cost, i personally can only see the prices leveling out because of the red diesel changes.
When i look at the cost of say a 20 foot 85 hp quicksilver diesel @ approx Ł 25 to Ł 26k, the same boat with a 115 hp evinrude is less than Ł 20k, with a 5 year warranty and 3 years servicing its hard to say no, i remember your engine well Marc it never let you down once, even faster than the ferry on more than one occasion..hee hee !!

[boblydon]

Maybe the diesel engines will still be more popular in the bigger boats which will live in a marina, but smaller boats like what i am looking for may prefer outboards, i reading on the net about the arvor 18, it comes with a 50hp nanni diesel, or a faster 90hp outboard at a much cheaper price, at the moment i cant see a downside for the outboard on a small boat but am trying to get as much info as possible before parting with my cash.

[big_sean]

fuel economy

hi bob

well a few people i know have got outboards and if you look at a lot of the smaller comercial fleet now they are running the new cheetar catamarans with the honda outboards

one of my mates has a warrior 175 with a 100 mariner on the back it is easily trailered and with four anglers on running at at approx 22 knots it produces 5 to 7 mpg but the same boat with the 115 hp engine delivers slightly better mpg

i have a NEW breed two stroke on my shetland sheltie and that produces approximately 6 to 8 mpg

but i dont think i would even look at a diesel boat now as outboards are just getting better and better with huge waranties some even have a 3 year service shedule and are proving bullit proof

also if it goes wrong how easy is it to get an inboard out against getting an out board off

also some of the outboards are basically car engines some of the the honda's have got the vtec engine in them and how reliable are they

sean

[Codfather]

Interesting thread.

Me and the old man are having similar thoughts at the moment.
Weather to bite the bullet and get an arvor 190 or 20 with nanni 85hp or stick with our boat (reiver sportsman) and get a newer outboard.

Thing is we would like the comfort of being able to sit in the wheel house of an arvor on the way back in rough sea's, instead of me getting spray lashed off me face all the way and also have the economical diesel engine. But they are pricey

Our old 1998 force 75hp 2 stroke certainly like's the juice.

Say we went out to our favourite wreck at about 10 miles out and back again , going almost straight as the crow fly's at around 18 knots. We would on average use 9 - 10 gallon of petrol + 2 stroke oil mix !!!

If we have a good run about visiting a few marks we can use a lot more.

Can anyone give rough diesel costs for running an arvor 85hp.

Cheers
Martin

[16979arkle]

you probably wouldnt get the same performance as a outboard ,i had qs640 build quality was crap wouldnt have anything to do with quicksilver,

[Charlie_Thompson]

What kind of engine have we got mark? I'd like a 3 stroke one - is that allowed? or if not a 68, who makes the stroke rules up - I bet it's a frenchman in the government.

[KeithB]

I think a lad in the boat club is selling his boat if you decide on an Arvor Bob.

[boblydon]

Hi Sean,
Thanks for the info, i have been looking at the cat style boats, but they are deffinatley out of my price range, i am focusing on the arvor / oquetau / quicksilver style boats, one of the main reasons for that is, having been out with norman many times i feel his boat is about as good as it gets, sizewise, build quality and style, etc that however is reflected in the price, i appreaciate you only get what you pay for so build quality may suffer a bit.
Unlike when i had sasha the merry fisher 805, i have no intentions of ever staying overnight on the boat so i dont need all the frills that go with a cruiser style boat, and i certainly dont want to be paying the same sort of fuel bills that i did with her...its all horses for courses

Kieth if the lad is after selling get him to email me some info, i am looking over the next few weeks to see whats about and what i can afford, will make the decision after me hols in a few weeks so i am sorted for the start of the season

[northeast1]

I am glad you asked this Bob and by the way good to see you back on your feet again.

I had the good idea of buying old and doing up, yer got bored after 4 months and sold for a little more than spent on it so not all bad but i have also been looking at the arvors andthe quicksilvers and merry fishers.

Like you not sure if i should go for the D or the P models.